Grab a Brew Share your view
Notes
Brian - environmentalism touching every little part of our lives. Lot of questions about what it means.
?1 What does GREEN mean? There is disagreement.
T. I go out of my way to not recycle. I don’t do this. I go out of my way not to recycle.
Nick: what about the aluminum tree farmers. Truth in what Trevor said. Aluminum easiest thing to recycle.
? Even tho not as efficient, we should strive for doing it. In China, 60 minutes, documentary on computer parts recycled. Heated over coal stoves, led soldering melted off, $8/day to do it. They get sick. Computers themselves create paperless economy, save a lot of trees. Computers not as easily recycled. Right now GREEN means put my clear glass. I recycle 90% of packaging from HyVee. Some people take stuff out of the garbage.??
Eric: What if the earth - gets rebalanced - we should try to recycle, to not pollute the earth, or put chemicals out there that are waste. If we don’t regulate ourselves the earth will regulate itself back into balance.
Trevor - weshould only recycle if it’s the efficient thing to do.
Cody: If people aren’t striving to make it more efficient, then how is it going to work? Is the only thing holding you back the cost of recycling?
Christina: Amazon is cutting back on the packaging materials - the issue is not if you should recycle but cut back on the amount of packaging used?
B: Lots of types of resources. Recycling saves on space. Italy is overpounded by garbage. the mafia controls garbage control. It’s in the streets. It costs a little more energy to recycle, but it saves on space.
?: Digress from ???
If you don’t like recycling, I hope you throw out your TV, batteries, computer, just throw it into the water system
T: scare tactics, it doesn’t contribute anything to this argument. Disagree with Cody’s view. Nobody really uses alternative fuels - we’re working on innovations.
Darren: if we switch to things it takes years to adopt. 2 years to figure out how to swap an antenna.. What do people think the time frame would be for some things to beocme implemented?
? We’re talking about biodegradeable packaging that starts on a corporate level. Just because something’s an easy way to make a product, that’s where we get waste. We need to change the corporate level. The Subaru factory that is a wildlife preserve. It starts at that level.
Nick: look waht happened to car co.’s is they’re tanking b/c of the supply/demand level. We have to make it eco. feasible for co’s to produce alternative energies. Solar power will become a consumer product in the next few years.
B? I disagree with the fact that the human is the greatest natural disaster.
Tyler: Rampant militant… Renee - the Christian fundamentalist doesn’t care about the environment - Brooks 1 Cor. 15… Brooks you are in the minority - Sarah Palin - believes that are not willing to admit there is a problem…
Quick question - if God is going to renew the earth… why not run it ragged..
Eric - Christian experts - that Christians believe that Jesus will come back - some day that Jesus will come back and reign for 1000 years…. Does it say Jesus will get rid of all the garbage?
Darren - why don’t we just trash the earth b/c Jesus is coming back anyway… “no one knows the day or the hour”
Pigeon-holing people on their positions… people in Jesus Camp - run-of-the-mill Christians - people’s end-goal… mixed up version of what their views are… I don’t know many people who that’s their one thing
Cody: we have to look out for people in the future…
Renee: there are people who believe that - they are growing in number “That money is not going to conservation”
Brett: fundamentalist movement is very small - never met someone who doesn’t care about it. ‘do whatever we want with the earth’ is not a popular view at all. Check out the Chrsitianity Today magazine to see that. First commandment - “care for the earth” Screwed up in it because we’ve wrecked it. We *all* have the same view - we are consumer oriented. We rip through resources like thy’re infinite. If we are to take the whole nation of India, and raise them in resources like how we consume? it would take 5 earths.
Nick: Douglas Adams - greatest 5 books ever read - restaurant at the end of the universe - 3rd book - prophet Zarquon with 30 seconds to go in the universe. Somewhere in my head is being “stewards of creation.” I would want to do everything I could to protect.
Brian: “Ecotainer” taking a sustainable engineering class - what’s better - paper or styrofoam cup? Both are terrible. If you cared about environment you would take a cup and use it.
Brian the Moderator: UCLA Len White Jr. Historical roots of ecological crisis - attitudes toward nature from judeo-christian. World created solely for benefit of man. No item in physical creation - separated humans from nature. Part of nature vs. Ruler of nature. It all had to be respected. In contrast with paganism, insisted it was God’s will to exploit nature for their own ends. Chrsitianity and Western Civ as a whole held a view of nature that separated humans from rest of natural world.
Trevor: greed is the reason? I’m greedy for wanting to save the earth? I’m greedy enough to have a world to live in. I’m a really greedy person. But I don’t recycle.
Cody: Brett you said being stewards of the earth was the first commandment. Is there any forethought for following a command?
B: role that religion should play is that we would want to have the flowering of human kind. Fruitful and multiply. Multiply.
Cody: I don’t think it solves the problem I have.It would be a moral attribute to think you want to do the best thing - presupposed so following his commands would be the best. The act of following the command is not a moral action. It’s just following the command.
Tyler: I am suspect of the Christian theology of this issue.
#1: God is sovereign so it doesn’t matter what we do.
#2: this world is not my home, i’m only passing through.
Brett: it’s not in spite, it’s because of the Christian position.
B: Just following a direction does not have a good moral or bad moral connotation. But when you do follow direction, you can logical figure out why you should do it. If it’s this figure we call God told you to do this, if he made a lot of commandments in the past, then you put trust in this person…
Cody: Trevor recycles aluminum cans. But doing it b/c of something they told you to do, it’s not a moral attribute.
Tyler: do not love the world or anything in the world, doesn’t that preclude recycling. “I’m just passing through.”
Brett: When you’re trying to understand the intentions of a verse, you can’t pull it out of context. …. Tyler …. “Show me in the Bible” Romans 8: The creation waits eager longing for the … hope the creation itself will be set free… It’s in decay.” We do it b/c it is a joy. It is a lot of fun.
Tyler: talk about context Romans 8: did you treat that the same way - did you take it out of context… if he didn’t mean it that the rocks of the ground Genesis 3: God would command weeds to come out of the earth in response to original sin.
?: Accusing someone of taking it out of context - point fingers - trying to put it into the bigger picture.
Moderator Brian: Discussion we’ve had is great so far… Sometimes that means let’s be calm. I played on one side the foundation of western civilization, the earth is here for us to use. But on the other side. The stewardship idea is not a new thing. Calvin: man steward of God’s earth. Thomas Aquinas man has some responsbility towards animals. On one side, there’s that view, then there’s the other view that says we’re stewards of what we’ve got. Which way is it today?
Cody: If we are just following a command then we aren’t really being moral
Darren: why does anyone do anything? That’s not…. How much space does an aluminum can take in a junk yard… Aluminum is the most abundant metal
Renee - I haven’t met those Christians who are really avid economy-savers.
Nick: Pale blue Dawn: carl sagan. Look at that blue dot. That’s us.
Cody: it’s a deep and nuanced question: I don’t not-rape people because I am following a command. I’m going to move.. I’ll talk later.
?: Defining morals and ethics… Morals: way of looking at the world. We act within a set of mals. Ethics is a set of reflecting on those morals. Kids act the way that they’ve been trained…
Nick: Charles Darwin - origin of species is long. Had an idea that every creature on the planet were all related somehow. Gets a lot wrong. We’re all related. I don’t kill insects for fear that that I feel what that bug may be feeling. I know this is just the one planet that we get.
Trevor: born as anything - born as anything else…
B: getting more nuancy about following orders. Sometimes we do things we don’t know why it’s moral. We don’t have reasons behind it. We don’t ahve logical reasons but we eat the food and later we say it’s OK we’re not hungry anymore. We don’t know why we don’t go out into the street, we don’t even know that it keeps us safe. We can’t construct the full logical reasoning. We do that in sciene. Evolution we don’t understand the full biological - scientists have a lot of faith in the things we do. Science and other fields are a chain of trust. That belief that lets us know what we think is right to do.
Nick: The basis of science is that it’s repeatable. Darwin got a lot wrong but it’s because they didn’t have genetics yet. No I don’t have a soul but I think I have consciousness. I am moving in the direction of vegetarians.
Darren: the world can by our best estimates support 12 bil. people as long as everyone’s a vegan. We’re at 7bil. Can conservation save our children? Is convservation also limiting populations.
?: It’s not about food it’s about delivery.
Cody: Does population control save our children. Would abortion save our children? Population control.
Trevor: Having abortion be legal - they can’t afford another kid for whatever reason. They more than likely resort to crime. They couldn’t support them. They resorted to crime. Crime significantly dropped.
?: I thought you had a really good point. Command just to obey a command for the sake of obeying the command. God gives us this choice.
Cody: Morality is choosing to obey the command but not the action to obey the command. Following a command - being stewards of the earth - a moral action.
Tyler: Choosing. Omnipotent. #1. We don’t have free will. #2 Commandment is not an ethic. #3. 1 Samuel 15 go into and kill everybody there.
?: the one giving the command is the moralist. Following an order in and of itself is not moral. The fact that we can’t know if actions are good, we can’t follow that…
Brett: I don’t want to go back and forth between that. Free will not debateable here.